WEBVTT

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>> All right, so, um, that was a great 
presentation by Ms. Billison, you know,  

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and Mr. Bruckner for Apple. Now, we're going 
to move into another engaging conversation. Uh,  

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we are going to have an engagement in the 
virtual environment, ensuring that everyone  

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has a voice and accessibility. It's going to be 
another panel discussion. We'll have Mr. Andrew  

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Nielson from GSA, Director of the Government-wide 
I.T. Accessibility Program, Mr. Allen Hoffman,  

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I'm not sure where you are right now, Mr. 
Hoffman, but let us know when you get on,  

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um, Kathy Eng from the Access 
Board, Accessibility Board,  

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Mr. Douglas Zak. This is part of the Accessibility 
& Usability, and Kristen Smith from GSA.

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So, guys, if you are in the room, please 
make yourself shown. There's Mr. Nielson,  

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there's Mrs. Eng, there's Mrs. Smith, and there's 
Mr. Douglas Zak. So, full disclosure, I know all  

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of these rascals that are on this call right 
now. We go way, way, way, way, way, way back,  

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wait, probably way too far back, but that's 
okay. These guys are great. They know a lot.  

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I'm really looking forward to hearing 
what the conversation is going to be,  

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um, talking about engagement 
in the virtual environment.

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So, on that note, because if not, it'll be just 
like old days, and I'll just continue to keep  

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talking, Crystal will start cracking jokes. 
Yeah, I have the old chronic, a joke, Andrew,  

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not just like, come on, get this work done. 
[Laughter] That's it. I think Al on as well.  

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Oh, is he? I don't-- Al-- we don't see his screen 
yet. His, uh, okay, Mr. Hoffman, you hear us?

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>> Somebody remind me of 
the keyboard for the camera.

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>> I think it's, uh, what was it, 
the other day it was a command shift.

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>> Oh yes, oh, for video, yeah, you're right.

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>> Here we go.

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>> That's definitely, that's definitely a point 
that should come up in this conversation. I,  

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I think, you know, we had some 
of that in our discussion.

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>> Vince, thanks so much for, for the broad 
introduction. Uh, we'll go through and,  

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and make some individual introductions on our own. 
Um, I did want to just kind of, you know, tee up,  

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uh, you know, make the transition from, from the 
previous presentation, which, which is, it's great  

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to see, uh, you know, so many accessibility 
features, uh, you know, being added to devices  

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that, that we can all take advantage of and, 
and that the people with disabilities can take  

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advantage of, to, you know, to make life better, 
to make things more convenient. And part of our  

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conversation today, I, I honestly kind of forget 
exactly what, what the final title ended up being  

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on the agenda slide, but, uh, but we want to 
talk about making our online, uh, virtual,  

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uh, virtual, not only virtual, but, uh, online 
engagement and interactions, collaboration, uh,  

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more accessible. And some of that is, of course, 
about the tools themselves. Some of that is about  

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using the tools in an accessible way, and some of 
it is just about, kind of, some business process,  

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the ways that we, we interact with, with each 
other. And so that's what our discussion is  

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going to be about today. Um, before we get 
into the discussion, let's do introductions,  

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and then I want to, to selfishly, uh, just share 
a little bit, very briefly, show you where to find  

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some content, um, on Section508.gov, uh, 
that can help add to this conversation as  

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well and that you can kind of take away later 
for, for some study. But as Vince mentioned,  

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my name is Andrew Nielsen. I'm the director of 
the government-wide I.T accessibility program  

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that sits in GSA's office of government-wide 
policy. Um, together with the access board,  

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GSA shares a responsibility to provide technical 
assistance to agencies in meeting the requirements  

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of Section 508, where, of course, the access 
board also has the added responsibility of,  

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of writing and maintaining the, the Section 
508 standards. Um, and, uh, I, I Vince,  

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as Vince mentioned, also no stranger to DHS. In 
a former life, I spent years consulting in, uh,  

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somewhere and then throughout DHS, um, and then 
landed in the, in the office of Accessibility  

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Systems and Technology while still in consulting. 
Um, and so, so very, it's great to see familiar  

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names and faces here and, and happy to be back. 
Uh, I'll give, give it, uh, next to my colleague  

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Kristen who also is a GSA and, and we'll, we'll 
make, make the rounds to everyone else as well.

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>> Awesome, um, thanks Andrew and Vince. 
My name is Kristen Smith O'Connor,  

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and as Andrew said, I also work at GSA's office 
of government-wide policy. Um, and as Vince said,  

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um, I have also been in the Consulting world for 
quite a while. It's been a little under 10 years  

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working at OAST. I'm so glad to be part of this 
panel. I know that I will toss it over to Kathy.

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>> Thank you, Mrs. Smith O'Connor.  

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Um, it's great to be here with everyone. Uh, 
I'm Kathy Eng. I'm with the U.S. Access Board,  

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but I was with DHS OAST, uh, from, geez, 2006 till 
2015. Uh, so I think, I, a bunch of us grew up,  

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uh, under the OAST umbrella, and it's really nice 
to be back here. Uh, turn it over to Al, my former  

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boss, by the way, who's, who's living it up on his 
deck, apparently hanging out on the deck, yeah.

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>> Um, yeah, I was at DHS for a while, and, uh, 
no, I'm not, um, now I'm in the Consulting world  

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with a company called TPGI, 
there I did my advertisement,  

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um, it's like old home week today, so it's nice to 
see folks that, uh, everybody I used to work with.  

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So here I am, and, uh, I guess 
it's over to Doug, is Doug on, yep.

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>> Okay, uh, so I, I have spent like seven years, 
uh, in Consulting, and now I, uh, formerly -- I,  

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I work for Accessibility and Usability, so I 
support the DHS accessibility help desk, so I'm  

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the person that will be handling all your emails, 
um, via the email address that was shared today.

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>> Awesome, thank you, Doug. I, uh, yeah, so 
many of you know and love Doug already. Uh,  

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many of you might not realize it was Doug on 
the other end of an email exchange. Um, but,  

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but Doug has, uh, has been offering excellent 
customer service on the help desk for years.  

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And Al mentioned he was at DHS, he was, he's the 
former deputy director of the Office of Accessible  

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Systems and Technology, which is now Accessibility 
or-- part of Accessibility and Usability.  

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Thank you all to my, uh, to my co-panelists for,  

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for putting up with me and, and, uh, and, 
and being willing to offer your expertise.

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Um, so, this, this panel, uh, you had a little bit 
of the background, um, but the reason I assembled  

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this panel is because, um, we, you know, we have, 
uh, you know, varying perspectives, obviously,  

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some expertise in the world of accessibility, um, 
some a little bit more involved in, in helping to,  

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um, assess needs for accommodations and, and, 
uh, and assistive technologies as part of those,  

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um, and, and of course, some of us have 
some, some very lived experiences that  

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contribute to the conversation, uh, about and 
tips and tricks, uh, things we might offer to  

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this audience to help you understand, um, you 
know, what we need to consider when it comes  

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to managing our online engagement, whether, 
um, whether it's, uh, a meeting like this  

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or it's using online collaboration tools, even if 
it's not directly in a meeting, uh, and we'll come  

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back to that to kind of set the stage for, uh, 
you know, for what exactly we're talking about.

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I'm going to very cautiously share screen. 
Yesterday I shared screen and it crashed my  

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computer somehow, uh, so, well, if that 
happens, I'll, I'll ask one of you to  

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take over while I come, uh, drop and come back, 
but I did just want to share, uh, very briefly,  

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uh, share my screen, um, to 
show you that on Section508.gov,  

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we have a great article information resource on 
creating accessible meetings, everywhere from,  

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uh, meet planning and considerations 
during the planning process and and  

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asking about accommodations, planning logistics, 
logistics to make sure that the meeting runs,  

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um, as accessibly as possible, uh, creating 
presentation materials that are accessible,  

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tips for running meetings, and ways that 
you can engage more, uh, or, you know,  

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better, more inclusively, and, uh, and, and then 
preparing and presenting or delivering, uh, the,  

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you know, either recordings 
or materials after meetings.

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So, while the focus is on meetings here, this is 
definitely also can inform our discussion here,  

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but I wanted to give you the ability to, um, 
I want to give you a little bit of a takeaway,  

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uh, stuff you can study on your own 
later, and you can get there by going to  

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section508.gov/create/accessible-meetings. So, 
that, that's the, that's the promo that I'll do,  

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um, on my end. Um, and indeed, indeed, it does 
look like I, I, uh, I now that I've, nope, okay,  

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now I got, I got myself back. Okay, didn't crash 
this time. I was worried about that for a second.  

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Um, so, so again, so, so that content, you know, 
about accessible meetings, our conversation is,  

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it is about, uh, meetings and helping to 
make meetings accessible as part of our  

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online engagement, but it's a little bit broader 
than that. And, and so, you know, to kind of help  

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us set, help us set the scope a little bit, which 
admittedly is pretty broad, um, uh, Al, I wanted  

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to go to you first and kind of, maybe go, go to 
you to help us set that stage or set the scope.  

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What are we talking about when we meet, when we 
talk about online engagement and collaboration?

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>> So, yeah, I asked when I was asked to be 
on this, like, throughout something of, like,  

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the word collaboration can mean a lot of 
things to a lot of people, and virtual  

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environments can mean a lot of things to a lot 
of people. Um, it could be anything from, um,  

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just sharing files or working on a file with more 
than, you know, two authors, five authors that,  

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concurrently, it could be the video conferencing 
with multiple people. It could be, um,  

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all the way up to doing things like gaming. 
I mean, you know, it's all that's all kind  

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of collaboration. So, uh, for me, anyway, for 
this talk, I've focused on sort of the things  

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people use day to day. Let's just, you know, put 
it up, Teams, our favorite thing, Teams or Zoom.  

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Um, so you've got working on 
files collaboratively together,  

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sharing screens, and, you know, those are the 
primary things. And then, and then, uh, real-time  

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interactive communications, those are the 
three areas that I sort of focused on for this.  

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Um, so as opposed to covering everything, 
because then we would need more time.

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>> Right, right. We can't boil 
the ocean today, uh, but I like,  

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I like those kinds of groupings. And, and 
I think, you know, also to acknowledge that  

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those things we can use also in 
combination and independently,  

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um, from one another. And so, um, and there might 
be different considerations when we're using them  

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collaboratively or in combination, um, and or, uh, 
independently. So, you know, a document repository  

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or co-editing a document might look very different 
once we, now, join a meeting together to talk  

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through that together, uh, and, and so, you know, 
again, we're this is not going to be the end-all  

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and be-all of the conversation, uh, but hoping 
at least it gives some, uh, insights about how  

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to manage those collaborations more inclusively 
and to make them a little bit more accessible.  

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So yeah, thanks Al, for kind of helping us set 
the stage again, broad scope, but, uh, but,  

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but at least it may be hopefully gives us a little 
bit better idea of what we're talking about.

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Kathy, I wanted to go to, go to you next to, 
kind of, to, uh, to, to give us a little bit  

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of what are some of the common pitfalls, again, 
when we're talking about meetings or about some  

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of the other collaboration tools, what are 
some of the common pitfalls we run into,  

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and how might we address some of those? 
And then, Al and Doug, get ready, because  

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then I want to come back to you for, again, you 
know, kind of some more of the lived experience,  

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um, so, so get ready for that. Uh, but 
yeah, Kathy, please, uh, start us off.

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>> Yeah, uh, thanks. I, um, I think, you know, in 
our past few years of having to meet virtually and  

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learning how to do it right, we still have a few 
things that, you know, we've learned, and still  

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some other things that are popping up that people 
just, uh, are unfamiliar with. So, I'll just, uh,  

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kind of talk about some of the accessibility 
barriers that, that maybe can be addressed,  

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um, even while in the meeting.

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I think a common problem that sometimes we 
encounter during presentations and displaying  

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slide decks, um, a lot of people tend to say, 
"As you can see," but maybe add to that the audio  

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description of what you're trying to point out 
that's visually available. Include some text, uh,  

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description about what it is you're even trying 
to point out. It could be a very busy picture,  

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and I could bet, you know, a text description 
could benefit everyone to focus on what it is that  

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you're trying to talk about, what it is you're 
trying to maybe highlight for the entire audience.  

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Um, sometimes I'm even guilty of this one, 
like there are a lot of controls to raise  

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your hand and give a thumbs up, but I'll 
give a thumbs up visually, and no one in,  

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no one who's, uh, in the meeting will be aware 
of it because they're not looking just at me. Um,  

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so I use the, use the technical, uh, equivalence, 
like nodding your head or giving your thumbs up if  

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you want to get in the queue to say something, 
raise your hand with the platform features.

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Um, one of the things that Al mentioned is, is 
the document sharing. Make sure that when, uh,  

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you're sharing a document, provide it accessibly 
in advance, so people aren't seeing it and trying  

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to listen to it with possibly their screen 
reader while people are talking. That could  

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be really difficult to listen to and read 
at the same time with a screen reader.  

00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:29.160
Um, even in, you know, earlier, maybe not so much 
a problem now, is you've got to pay attention to  

00:16:29.160 --> 00:16:35.220
what's being shown in the captions, especially if 
they're just automated captions. For the longest  

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time, I didn't get Section 508 to even get Camp, 
the automatic captions, to display correctly.  

00:16:44.040 --> 00:16:49.140
Um, and then just basic things like, you know, if 
you're in a noisy environment and you don't have,  

00:16:49.140 --> 00:16:55.080
uh, noise cancellation on your mic, that can 
really interfere with people hearing you and  

00:16:55.080 --> 00:17:02.700
understanding what you're saying. And then on 
the visual side, if you're, if you're, you have a  

00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:09.420
background that's too bright or if you're in a 
room that's too dark, um, that interferes with  

00:17:09.420 --> 00:17:15.420
someone who's maybe trying to use, uh, lip reading 
or speech reading and, to help them understand.

00:17:15.420 --> 00:17:20.460
So, there are a lot of things that might 
be common sense, um, but on top of that  

00:17:20.460 --> 00:17:25.740
are some accessibility considerations 
when you're on these virtual platforms.

00:17:28.040 --> 00:17:33.120
>> Excellent, thank you, Kathy. I, I think 
those are some good, really common ones, and,  

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and as we see with, with a lot of, uh, many of 
these recommendations, some of it is, is just  

00:17:40.020 --> 00:17:45.900
getting used to, in general, interacting in, in 
virtual environments, and, and some of it, uh,  

00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:51.060
it helps more than just people with disabilities, 
but, but especially so when we understand, you  

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know, how, how it might affect, uh, you know, for 
instance, someone reading using a screen reader,  

00:17:56.040 --> 00:18:00.120
um, and, or someone with low hearing that, that, 
uh, for where the background noise is especially  

00:18:00.120 --> 00:18:07.560
disturbing. Um, so if I could, uh, at all, if I 
could, uh, go to you next and, and ask you maybe  

00:18:07.560 --> 00:18:13.560
for more specifics, you know, are there some, 
some particular accessibility challenges or issues  

00:18:13.560 --> 00:18:18.720
that, that you encounter or, or more broadly, 
uh, that you know, that you know of that others  

00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.440
are encountering, but you know, so both, you 
know, in general, experience, some of your lived  

00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:27.360
experience, and, and what are some suggestions 
to help, uh, you know, overcome some of those?

00:18:27.980 --> 00:18:33.720
>> I'm probably guilty of already failing some 
of these, since I'm outside and there's a bird  

00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:40.080
in the background, so I'll just throw 
a couple of them out. I'm mostly just  

00:18:40.080 --> 00:18:46.380
gonna speak for me because I don't want to 
speak for others. So, one of the challenges,  

00:18:47.100 --> 00:18:51.780
and this sort of connection with the guy 
from Apple is talking about cognitive load,  

00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:59.580
well, I'm sure many of you and me, the more 
you get outside of the government, especially,  

00:19:00.840 --> 00:19:09.120
um, you use multiple platforms, and just a basic 
cognitive load of which key, which key turns the  

00:19:09.120 --> 00:19:13.320
camera on and off. Well, of course, they couldn't 
possibly just be the same key, like, you know,  

00:19:13.320 --> 00:19:21.060
make things easy, and, uh, so, and but on most 
of the platforms, there's a lot of controls,  

00:19:21.780 --> 00:19:25.920
there's a lot of options. I mean, to be 
honest, to me, that feels like there's,  

00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:31.320
I know they're, you know, they're sales-driven, 
they want a new feature to put it in there, but  

00:19:31.320 --> 00:19:38.400
from an operational perspective, there's a lot of 
stuff, and if, if you're blind, sometimes they're  

00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:43.740
accessible, but let's just, let's say it that 
they're not necessarily very usable. Sometimes  

00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:49.800
they're just too complicated to remember. So, 
that's one. I don't know if that's because I'm  

00:19:49.800 --> 00:19:53.520
blind or I'm having cognitive 
load. I don't know which one.

00:19:54.600 --> 00:20:00.600
Um, another one would be if you're doing 
collaborative editing on a document,  

00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:05.700
two people kind of works, once you 
start getting past two people, though,  

00:20:07.080 --> 00:20:11.700
having the discussion and they being 
able to listen with a screen reader  

00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:20.400
to the edits and make sure that they're correct 
can be a real cognitive load for a blind person  

00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:26.940
or a low-vision person using a screen reader. And 
what I've found is often, you, it's best to just  

00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:32.520
have an editor, somebody that does the editing 
that's taken from discussion and sometimes even  

00:20:32.520 --> 00:20:37.380
reads it out and says, "Okay, here's what 
we changed." It can really speed things up.

00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:43.860
And then lastly, during presentations, the 
thing, um, Kathy touched on about sending  

00:20:43.860 --> 00:20:49.860
the document ahead of time, the concept to not 
understand really clearly is that when people  

00:20:49.860 --> 00:20:53.940
do a presentation and they're sharing their 
screen with their PowerPoint or whatever,  

00:20:55.980 --> 00:21:00.060
it doesn't share an accessible PowerPoint, 
it shares a picture of the PowerPoint.  

00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:07.860
So, the person on the other end can't just read 
what is being shown with their screen reader,  

00:21:07.860 --> 00:21:12.600
really, they could do some crazy things and 
maybe, but it would be, they'd be doing more  

00:21:12.600 --> 00:21:17.700
of that than trying to pay attention. And so, 
having something ahead of time that's accessible  

00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:23.880
gives a person the opportunity to go through it 
quickly or maybe flip back and forth a little  

00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:29.760
bit while the other person's talking and listen 
to it or look at it on a Braille display. Um, it  

00:21:29.760 --> 00:21:34.020
kind of comes down to how much can you process it 
once, kind of back to that whole cognitive thing.  

00:21:34.560 --> 00:21:38.760
So, those are, those are kind of back to the 
same things, but those are just some of them.

00:21:38.760 --> 00:21:44.220
>> Yeah, you know, Doug or Doug, Al, 
if I could ask you one more, that,  

00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:48.480
that, that you know you mentioned in, in, you 
know, some of our notes, uh, email exchange,  

00:21:49.560 --> 00:21:53.940
um, and that's with regard to the 
chats, uh, during a live meeting.

00:21:57.740 --> 00:22:00.750
>> Say that last part one more time, yeah.

00:22:00.750 --> 00:22:09.180
>> Sorry, the, the challenge for a screen reader 
user, uh, with the live chat in a meeting.

00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:16.920
>> Oh yeah, so, uh, the screen reader 
Jaws actually allows you to put  

00:22:17.580 --> 00:22:23.880
chat messages in one ear and then, like, listen or 
discuss in the other ear. Well, that's fine to a  

00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:32.880
point, I have two ears, not everybody does, um, 
but chats can become just complete distractions  

00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:38.940
if you're trying to listen to two things at once. 
You end up listening to one or the other, usually,  

00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:48.300
and not all platforms let you separate the chat 
from the live discussion, in which case, it's,  

00:22:48.300 --> 00:22:53.280
it's just bad, it's just bad thing. So, you have 
to figure out a way to turn that off, just turn,  

00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:56.880
sometimes you actually have to be turned 
off your screen reader, hope for the best.  

00:22:58.380 --> 00:23:05.820
Um, so chats, in my opinion, is, chat should be 
used sparingly during meetings if possible or at  

00:23:05.820 --> 00:23:09.780
least they should, your platform should 
have a way so they can be filtered out,  

00:23:11.580 --> 00:23:17.700
um, but, you know, I realize that people like 
chats, so it's just a, it's a balancing act.

00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:22.440
>> Yeah, and, and, uh, we'll hope to have time, 
we'll won't leave people in suspense too long,  

00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:27.600
we have, you know, some suggestions for, it, 
to, you know, to help, um, kind of moderate, uh,  

00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:35.100
some of that accessibility issue or, or usability 
or, um, kind of cognitive load that that presents,  

00:23:35.100 --> 00:23:39.360
but before doing that, Doug, I wanted to 
go to you with the same question, you know,  

00:23:39.360 --> 00:23:44.460
and again, in either in just observation 
or some of your, um, lived experience, uh,  

00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:50.220
you know, what are some other, uh, inclusivity 
or accessibility challenges you've encountered?

00:23:50.840 --> 00:24:10.800
>> So, um, I offered my computer, mainly, um, 
by voice, um, speech-to-text software, and,  

00:24:11.760 --> 00:24:26.160
um, one of the challenges that I have 
had is that, um, sometimes if you have...

00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:34.680
[...Stammering...] ...in a meeting set up,  

00:24:36.120 --> 00:24:44.340
um, sometimes if it has too many 
things or you're not in a quiet place,  

00:24:44.340 --> 00:24:58.800
sometimes your speech-to-text software, um, 
will screw up, so I, I end up, um, actually,  

00:24:58.800 --> 00:25:11.400
when I'm in meetings, I actually end up turning 
my speech-to-text software off because, um...

00:25:13.860 --> 00:25:24.480
...although I have a disability, I, 
I use, I use the software more for,  

00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:31.320
um, productivity purposes then so...

00:25:33.600 --> 00:25:34.380
...I...

00:25:36.780 --> 00:25:37.920
...I have...

00:25:42.060 --> 00:25:56.340
...my specific case is my disability 
is mild compared to most folks, and...

00:25:59.340 --> 00:26:01.020
...my experience...

00:26:03.540 --> 00:26:16.740
...is different than, say, a friend of mine 
who, who may have different limitations due to  

00:26:17.820 --> 00:26:32.220
a disability or whatever, so it really, it really 
comes down to not of one size fits all type of  

00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:48.900
approach in my mind, um, and, um, one of the other 
things that I run into in virtual meetings is...

00:26:51.300 --> 00:26:55.020
...the fact that people talk over each other,  

00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:09.180
um, so, and sometimes the meeting 
organizer has to understand that...

00:27:10.800 --> 00:27:24.000
...sometimes it takes a little bit longer for the 
individual to get their thoughts together, so...

00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:30.780
...with that being said, everybody has to...

00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:44.880
...everybody has to give a chance 
to everybody in the meeting.

00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:52.440
>> Yeah, Doug, I think, um, you know, certainly,  

00:27:54.300 --> 00:28:00.480
we need to certainly be aware that, uh, that 
not everyone either has the inclination or the  

00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:08.580
ability, sometimes, to assert their opinion, 
uh, to insert it, um, and and or to maybe,  

00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:15.000
um, have the time to react in time to certain 
points, and and and so that, I think, it often  

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:21.360
is up to other, you know, members of the, of the 
team, other, other meeting participants, and often  

00:28:21.360 --> 00:28:29.100
the facilitator, to help ensure that everyone 
has a chance for for input, and yeah, yeah, and,  

00:28:29.100 --> 00:28:35.820
you know, to your earlier point, I mean, the one 
size fits all, of course, it just can't work, and  

00:28:35.820 --> 00:28:42.360
that's part of, I think, uh, not only within the 
meeting, uh, adjusting to accommodate particular  

00:28:42.360 --> 00:28:47.460
needs, but but also in preparation, uh, for for 
meetings and from for collaboration sessions,  

00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:53.280
to make sure that we really do understand, you 
know, what what we, what we're all coming to the  

00:28:53.280 --> 00:28:58.560
meeting with and and what, you know, what our 
needs are, um, you know, depending on on our  

00:28:58.560 --> 00:29:05.160
particular situation and and uh, um, so I, yeah, 
I think, excellent, um, excellent comments there,  

00:29:05.820 --> 00:29:11.940
uh, in the interest of time, we had to kind of 
talked about maybe some some tips and tricks for  

00:29:11.940 --> 00:29:18.060
a host and facilitator, kind of separate from a 
presenter, but if if possible, Kristen and Kathy,  

00:29:18.060 --> 00:29:24.720
I'm going to ask you to tag team that, um, so, so, 
like to maybe, to maybe we'll help the, the DHS  

00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:30.900
team get get, uh, maybe get get uh, get a little 
bit more, uh, back on on on uh, on, on schedule,  

00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:36.540
um, but, but yeah, if we could, uh, you 
know, Kathy first and then Kristen maybe,  

00:29:36.540 --> 00:29:43.320
uh, what are some tips and tricks hearing some of 
the lived experience? Hearing, in general, some of  

00:29:43.320 --> 00:29:51.300
the issues, um, in inclusivity and accessibility, 
what are some tips and tricks for, it doesn't have  

00:29:51.300 --> 00:29:57.900
to be a meeting or or presenter, a facilitator per 
se, but, you know, a team member who's helping to  

00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:02.580
facilitate the collaboration, but probably, 
I guess, you know, focusing on on a virtual,  

00:30:02.580 --> 00:30:08.480
uh, collaboration, Kathy, if you could take that 
first and then over to Kristen as well to add on.

00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:13.860
>> Yeah, uh, thanks Andrew, I think we 
saw an example of something when we first,  

00:30:13.860 --> 00:30:19.320
first started our meeting, uh, we need 
to know how to provide keyboard shortcuts  

00:30:19.320 --> 00:30:23.940
for people who need to use them, um, I 
don't think it's reasonable to expect,  

00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:29.400
uh, you know, the host to memorize all of them, 
but have them available, know how to find them,  

00:30:30.300 --> 00:30:35.460
um, in teams, at least in my version of teams, 
if you try to turn on your camera by the mouse,  

00:30:35.460 --> 00:30:43.200
then the keyboard shortcut is available with that 
button, so, so that's a great way to find things,  

00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:48.960
but not all platforms provide that same 
level of information, so be familiar with the  

00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:55.020
platform that you're using, um, are all of the 
features available in the platform accessible,  

00:30:56.100 --> 00:31:01.140
um, is the polling feature accessible, if 
it's not, then don't use it, how do you  

00:31:01.140 --> 00:31:06.120
enable captions, all of these accessibility 
features might be needed by your attendees,  

00:31:06.120 --> 00:31:11.160
and it'd be great if they don't know how 
and they ask you to be able to answer that,  

00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:18.720
and and in preparation of for the meeting, I 
would try to provide terminology for the CART  

00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:24.000
and sign language interpreters so that they can 
at least become familiar with what you're going  

00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:31.380
to be talking about so that they can provide the 
captions or the sign language correctly, and,  

00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:36.900
um, we mentioned this earlier, share any 
presentation materials in advance and do  

00:31:36.900 --> 00:31:42.240
some technology checks, especially for an event 
like this, DHS accessibility day, make sure  

00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:49.620
everyone's mic sounds good, make sure their video 
looks good, and and just, uh, plan to provide  

00:31:49.620 --> 00:31:55.080
accessibility features and information during 
the meeting, and I'll turn it over to Kristen.

00:31:55.940 --> 00:32:02.880
>> Okay, sweet, um, and I'm going to talk a little 
bit about, kind of, present our best practices  

00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:07.020
that kind of weaves into what Kathy mentioned, 
but this also isn't just for presenters,  

00:32:07.020 --> 00:32:11.880
the participant as well, and some of this goes 
back to what Doug and Al both referenced, to  

00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:19.320
um, but just be mindful of who's in the audience 
and plan for any end-user considerations in  

00:32:19.320 --> 00:32:26.280
advance, and, and we just heard, uh, Al and Doug 
give their perspective, where, you know, Al didn't  

00:32:26.280 --> 00:32:31.680
particularly care for chat, but that might be a 
very valuable way for others to communicate, um,  

00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:38.280
so just know that, uh, using both options might 
not be best for everyone in the audience, but it  

00:32:38.280 --> 00:32:44.340
provides inclusivity, um, and then some things 
that the panel already mentioned, uh, but worth  

00:32:44.340 --> 00:32:49.980
kind of repeating again is providing those kind 
of equivalent descriptions, this also goes into  

00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:56.700
cognitive load, and, and Al touched on this, but 
tell people what they're looking at and why, for  

00:32:56.700 --> 00:33:02.160
folks who also have cognitive disabilities, don't 
make them decipher a chart or a graph, just tell  

00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:06.960
them the important information, and you don't have 
to read verbatim on the screen, please don't think  

00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:11.820
that we're saying just read from your slide deck, 
and that's all you need to do, but find natural  

00:33:11.820 --> 00:33:19.860
ways to weave in really salient points, um, and 
then just to reiterate that Al's point, that the  

00:33:19.860 --> 00:33:25.020
misconception is that when you're screen sharing, 
folks using assistive technology can actually get  

00:33:25.020 --> 00:33:32.820
into and access that document, they can't, so 
again, repeat, um, share materials in advance, I  

00:33:32.820 --> 00:33:37.980
also think that people have a fear of silence, but 
I think silence and pauses can be super helpful,  

00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:43.260
um, allow time for sign language interpreters 
to switch, that's a really great way to build  

00:33:43.260 --> 00:33:49.500
an applause, I am actively trying not to speak 
rapidly, I know that I'm super guilty of that,  

00:33:50.100 --> 00:33:54.180
um, but a, you know, give captioners time 
to synchronize and catch up with you,  

00:33:55.020 --> 00:34:01.260
um, and then this just goes into everything we've 
talked about, that remember the different people  

00:34:01.260 --> 00:34:06.960
in the audience are going to be accessing and 
participating in different ways, I know for  

00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:12.840
even some of us like I, we don't use Teams over 
in GSA, so I'm accessing it through a browser,  

00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:17.100
which looks different than if I were to download 
the application, some people might have to use  

00:34:17.100 --> 00:34:21.960
the phone because they don't have another way to 
access Teams, and so you know, really give people  

00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:29.640
a time to get adjusted to the technology, um, 
and again, back to those pauses, and as Al said,  

00:34:29.640 --> 00:34:34.380
sometimes navigating to the chat or listening 
to chat is distracting, someone might need to  

00:34:34.380 --> 00:34:40.500
take time to figure out how to enable their video 
or unmute themselves, so again, provide everyone  

00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:47.100
ample time just to feel comfortable to be able to 
interact, um, as they need, that was all I had.

00:34:47.100 --> 00:34:49.620
>> Yeah, thank you, Kristen. Oh, go ahead, Kathy.

00:34:49.620 --> 00:34:53.340
>> Andrew, I just wanted to re-emphasize 
something, and very important that Kristen  

00:34:53.340 --> 00:35:00.420
mentioned, not everybody in the meeting has 
the same version of the platform, uh, so diff,  

00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:05.040
you know, different people might have different 
features, some might not even be able to access  

00:35:05.040 --> 00:35:11.400
the chat, so you can't rely on chat to convey the 
message, um, it's important that if you're holding  

00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:16.320
a big event like this, if people can't access 
the chat, that they need to be able to have a  

00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:23.220
way to ask questions, and, and maybe allowing the 
attendees to come off mute to ask their question.

00:35:23.220 --> 00:35:27.660
>> Yeah, yeah, thank you, Kathy. Excellent 
points, and, you know, if I could add, if I,  

00:35:27.660 --> 00:35:32.880
as, as a panel moderator, if I could take 
the liberty to add a little bit as well,  

00:35:34.020 --> 00:35:39.360
um, you know, in some meetings, we might have 
a formal court facilitator, a meeting host,  

00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:48.660
others are, are impromptu, and nevertheless, you 
know, well, I guess depending on which case, uh,  

00:35:48.660 --> 00:35:55.260
it sometimes takes a facilitator or or someone 
to step into that role when we have boisterous,  

00:35:55.260 --> 00:36:01.620
uh, discussion and people talking over one 
another, that especially, of course, when you  

00:36:01.620 --> 00:36:08.340
have an interpreter or and or captioner, that can 
be really difficult on the interpreter and and or  

00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:13.620
the captioner, and in general, even without 
those, of course, that can be difficult to,  

00:36:13.620 --> 00:36:19.500
uh, to, you know, differentiate speech and 
and sometimes get the whole message, uh,  

00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:24.900
so you know, please that for yourselves, 
um, and and if you, if you are a formal,  

00:36:24.900 --> 00:36:30.180
uh, facilitator or meeting host, uh, then then 
step into that role, use that to help moderate,  

00:36:31.200 --> 00:36:34.440
um, and you know, to Al's earlier 
comment about about chats,  

00:36:35.640 --> 00:36:41.040
um, and just like Kristen mentioned, uh, 
you know, being ensuring that you provide,  

00:36:41.040 --> 00:36:45.480
or I'm sorry, it might have been Kathy, but you 
know, of course, when you when you provide an  

00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:50.880
audible description of the visual content, uh, 
that could also include, you know, highlighting  

00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:56.100
particular chat messages that everyone needs to 
to hear, and that someone with a screen reader,  

00:36:56.100 --> 00:36:59.640
your user, might have missed, um, but but 
it's still important to the conversation,  

00:37:01.140 --> 00:37:06.660
um. I want to you, Doug, or Doug and Al, I know 
we're going to lose you in just a few minutes  

00:37:06.660 --> 00:37:13.740
here, I wanted to go back to you, uh, to ask 
you for, uh, and Al first, since we're gonna  

00:37:13.740 --> 00:37:20.220
lose out, uh, any parting, uh, recommendation, 
suggestions, tips that you would offer to other  

00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:26.700
from a meeting participant or a collaborator, 
co-collaborator, perspective, what suggestions,  

00:37:26.700 --> 00:37:29.520
recommendations would you make to 
co-collaborators, other meeting  

00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:35.880
participants, to help make the experience of 
collaboration more inclusive and more accessible?

00:37:37.700 --> 00:37:45.360
>> Um. [pause] I don't know if it's connected 
or not, but I'll throw it in here anyway, sure  

00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:53.040
because I do have to go. Um, one of the things 
that I recommend to people that are organizing  

00:37:53.040 --> 00:38:00.780
meetings is, you know, if you think about it, 
there's a lot of people that present in the  

00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:06.120
world and it's pretty hard to educate all of them. 
Well, educate them before they start presenting.  

00:38:06.120 --> 00:38:12.720
If you're the coordinator of the meeting, give 
them some guidelines about, you know, explain  

00:38:14.100 --> 00:38:19.200
your pictures on your slides or if you've got 
a video and it might need some description,  

00:38:19.200 --> 00:38:25.680
you know, things like that, just give them some 
guidelines, and you know, ask them if they could  

00:38:25.680 --> 00:38:32.460
please follow them. And then the other thing I 
wanted to mention was, and Kristen touched on it,  

00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:43.500
we noticed that the Windows client for 
Zoom.gov is a better accessibility experience  

00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:50.880
for some things, and if you just do it on the 
web, so you have to consider that when you're,  

00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:55.140
you know, when you're doing these meetings, 
depending, you know, if it's internal, internal,  

00:38:55.140 --> 00:39:01.380
and external, etc. Uh, I think Kathy's right, 
not everybody's getting the same experience,  

00:39:02.040 --> 00:39:07.680
and, uh, sometimes it's best to sort of take that 
into account and maybe plan for the worst of all  

00:39:07.680 --> 00:39:13.080
worlds. And then the last thing I would throw out, 
if your agency is using an inaccessible platform,  

00:39:13.080 --> 00:39:17.340
call them on it and tell them to quit 
doing that because I won't name names,  

00:39:17.340 --> 00:39:23.040
but there's some that are just not good, 
and people are still using them, and it,  

00:39:23.040 --> 00:39:27.720
it makes life pretty miserable for 
people with disabilities, so, uh,  

00:39:27.720 --> 00:39:32.280
get them to quit using them or get them to fix 
them, one or the other. I think that's all I have.

00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:38.400
>> Uh, great, thanks Al and, and understanding you 
might have to drop, uh, really again appreciate  

00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:44.760
you joining us and offering your expertise. Uh, 
Doug, yeah, same question, uh, you know, what  

00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:49.980
suggestions would you make to your co-workers, 
to co-collaborators, other meeting participants,  

00:39:50.640 --> 00:39:53.880
uh, to help make the experience 
more inclusive and accessible?

00:39:57.020 --> 00:40:00.180
>> Oh, apologies, Doug, you're on mute still.

00:40:06.500 --> 00:40:07.500
>>  

00:40:07.500 --> 00:40:25.680
Okay, so the one thing that I would say is just, 
no, no, [Stammering] who is attending the meeting,  

00:40:25.680 --> 00:40:38.640
and if you have to, if you have to make 
accommodations in terms of timing based on  

00:40:39.420 --> 00:40:48.240
a person's disability or whether it takes them 
longer to get their thoughts together, just...

00:40:50.580 --> 00:41:02.220
...just be aware of that. If you're an 
event host or a working collaborator,  

00:41:03.600 --> 00:41:16.140
um, using, like, the Microsoft Teams collaboration 
tools, sometimes it's easier for folks to open  

00:41:16.860 --> 00:41:28.140
documents and collaborate if you open it 
within the desktop app versus the Teams um  

00:41:28.140 --> 00:41:40.200
window because it allows for more inclusiveness 
if it's not trying to open it in the web version,  

00:41:41.040 --> 00:41:49.140
etc. Yeah, yeah, so, so I 
would just, I would just say  

00:41:50.640 --> 00:42:04.860
know your participants, and, um, just make 
sure that if, if you know somebody with  

00:42:06.960 --> 00:42:20.520
challenges coming, asking, ask them first, 
how can we best assist you or what do you need  

00:42:20.520 --> 00:42:31.440
to be the most productive you can be in this 
discussion or this collaborative environment.

00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:37.080
>> Yeah, and, and you know, Doug, I think for, 
for our discussion, I think that's, that's a  

00:42:37.080 --> 00:42:42.960
great way, uh, it's a great parting thought, um, 
again, you know, back to your comment that it's,  

00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:47.460
we can't take a one-size-fits-all 
approach, uh, of course, everyone,  

00:42:48.540 --> 00:42:52.020
um, has their own individual lived 
experience, every disability is different,  

00:42:52.020 --> 00:42:57.300
even, even if we're talking about the same type of 
disability, everyone experiences, uh, differently,  

00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:03.120
um, and, and even outside of that, of course, we 
all have, have preferences and and, and different  

00:43:03.120 --> 00:43:08.400
needs, so I, I love, uh, that as a parting 
message for everyone to, to, you know, to, to  

00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:14.520
know your audience and to understand their needs 
and to plan in advance to help address those,  

00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:21.540
um, so I think, uh, again, I think we've, we 
started our, our part late, of course, uh,  

00:43:21.540 --> 00:43:25.620
and, and, uh, I think I probably lost track 
of time a little bit, but I think we're,  

00:43:25.620 --> 00:43:31.320
we're probably roughly on time for our overall 
time slot, um, but Vince, I'll, I'll give it  

00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:34.740
back to you. I think, I think we're happy to 
answer questions if we have time for that,  

00:43:34.740 --> 00:43:40.080
but, uh, but I think also, if, uh, if we need to 
move along, uh, we can just pass it right back.

00:43:40.080 --> 00:43:44.280
>> Yeah, yeah, we, I think from a timing 
standpoint, you're right on time right now.  

00:43:45.060 --> 00:43:48.720
Um, are there any questions? I 
see that there are some comments,  

00:43:48.720 --> 00:43:52.980
um, in the chat, but I did not 
see any specific questions.

00:43:56.160 --> 00:44:01.620
I don't think I saw any specific questions for, 
for any of the panelists, but, um, uh, just some  

00:44:01.620 --> 00:44:06.840
ongoing conversation. So, well, one thing I could 
say for myself, you know, Devon took notes about  

00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:11.820
best experience for the end users, thinking about 
the audience who's going to be participating in  

00:44:11.820 --> 00:44:17.940
your particular program that you're putting on 
and make sure it's more inclusive. Pretty sure  

00:44:17.940 --> 00:44:24.120
it would definitely will take some notes even 
for ourselves. And Miss Kristen Smith O'Connor,  

00:44:24.120 --> 00:44:30.600
I am sorry about the O'Connor in the end there. I 
should have known, veterans read all of my notes.

00:44:31.460 --> 00:44:36.420
>> Well, again, thanks, thanks to our panelists,  

00:44:36.420 --> 00:44:41.160
um, and, uh, and, and thanks to, to, uh, the 
audience for, for your attention. Hopefully,  

00:44:41.160 --> 00:44:46.020
we gave you something useful, uh, from 
our discussion to take away, and, again,  

00:44:46.020 --> 00:44:52.020
Section508.gov, I'll make the shameless plug 
for, uh, content there, uh, as a whole the  

00:44:52.020 --> 00:44:58.200
site's a great resource and, and again, the link 
that cat or that Kristen posted for us earlier,  

00:44:58.200 --> 00:45:02.580
uh, on creating accessible meetings, uh, 
some good content there. Thanks, everyone.

00:45:02.580 --> 00:45:03.720
>> Thank you, everybody.

00:45:03.720 --> 00:45:06.780
>> That was a great presentation, 
great information shared, thank you.  

00:45:14.100 --> 00:45:20.400
All right, all right, guys, we are going 
to move into our next panel discussion,  

00:45:21.240 --> 00:45:22.140
is going to be called...