>> All right, so, um, that was a great presentation by Ms. Billison, you know,
and Mr. Bruckner for Apple. Now, we're going to move into another engaging conversation. Uh,
we are going to have an engagement in the virtual environment, ensuring that everyone
has a voice and accessibility. It's going to be another panel discussion. We'll have Mr. Andrew
Nielson from GSA, Director of the Government-wide I.T. Accessibility Program, Mr. Allen Hoffman,
I'm not sure where you are right now, Mr. Hoffman, but let us know when you get on,
um, Kathy Eng from the Access Board, Accessibility Board,
Mr. Douglas Zak. This is part of the Accessibility & Usability, and Kristen Smith from GSA.
So, guys, if you are in the room, please make yourself shown. There's Mr. Nielson,
there's Mrs. Eng, there's Mrs. Smith, and there's Mr. Douglas Zak. So, full disclosure, I know all
of these rascals that are on this call right now. We go way, way, way, way, way, way back,
wait, probably way too far back, but that's okay. These guys are great. They know a lot.
I'm really looking forward to hearing what the conversation is going to be,
um, talking about engagement in the virtual environment.
So, on that note, because if not, it'll be just like old days, and I'll just continue to keep
talking, Crystal will start cracking jokes. Yeah, I have the old chronic, a joke, Andrew,
not just like, come on, get this work done. [Laughter] That's it. I think Al on as well.
Oh, is he? I don't-- Al-- we don't see his screen yet. His, uh, okay, Mr. Hoffman, you hear us?
>> Somebody remind me of the keyboard for the camera.
>> I think it's, uh, what was it, the other day it was a command shift.
>> Oh yes, oh, for video, yeah, you're right.
>> Here we go.
>> That's definitely, that's definitely a point that should come up in this conversation. I,
I think, you know, we had some of that in our discussion.
>> Vince, thanks so much for, for the broad introduction. Uh, we'll go through and,
and make some individual introductions on our own. Um, I did want to just kind of, you know, tee up,
uh, you know, make the transition from, from the previous presentation, which, which is, it's great
to see, uh, you know, so many accessibility features, uh, you know, being added to devices
that, that we can all take advantage of and, and that the people with disabilities can take
advantage of, to, you know, to make life better, to make things more convenient. And part of our
conversation today, I, I honestly kind of forget exactly what, what the final title ended up being
on the agenda slide, but, uh, but we want to talk about making our online, uh, virtual,
uh, virtual, not only virtual, but, uh, online engagement and interactions, collaboration, uh,
more accessible. And some of that is, of course, about the tools themselves. Some of that is about
using the tools in an accessible way, and some of it is just about, kind of, some business process,
the ways that we, we interact with, with each other. And so that's what our discussion is
going to be about today. Um, before we get into the discussion, let's do introductions,
and then I want to, to selfishly, uh, just share a little bit, very briefly, show you where to find
some content, um, on Section508.gov, uh, that can help add to this conversation as
well and that you can kind of take away later for, for some study. But as Vince mentioned,
my name is Andrew Nielsen. I'm the director of the government-wide I.T accessibility program
that sits in GSA's office of government-wide policy. Um, together with the access board,
GSA shares a responsibility to provide technical assistance to agencies in meeting the requirements
of Section 508, where, of course, the access board also has the added responsibility of,
of writing and maintaining the, the Section 508 standards. Um, and, uh, I, I Vince,
as Vince mentioned, also no stranger to DHS. In a former life, I spent years consulting in, uh,
somewhere and then throughout DHS, um, and then landed in the, in the office of Accessibility
Systems and Technology while still in consulting. Um, and so, so very, it's great to see familiar
names and faces here and, and happy to be back. Uh, I'll give, give it, uh, next to my colleague
Kristen who also is a GSA and, and we'll, we'll make, make the rounds to everyone else as well.
>> Awesome, um, thanks Andrew and Vince. My name is Kristen Smith O'Connor,
and as Andrew said, I also work at GSA's office of government-wide policy. Um, and as Vince said,
um, I have also been in the Consulting world for quite a while. It's been a little under 10 years
working at OAST. I'm so glad to be part of this panel. I know that I will toss it over to Kathy.
>> Thank you, Mrs. Smith O'Connor.
Um, it's great to be here with everyone. Uh, I'm Kathy Eng. I'm with the U.S. Access Board,
but I was with DHS OAST, uh, from, geez, 2006 till 2015. Uh, so I think, I, a bunch of us grew up,
uh, under the OAST umbrella, and it's really nice to be back here. Uh, turn it over to Al, my former
boss, by the way, who's, who's living it up on his deck, apparently hanging out on the deck, yeah.
>> Um, yeah, I was at DHS for a while, and, uh, no, I'm not, um, now I'm in the Consulting world
with a company called TPGI, there I did my advertisement,
um, it's like old home week today, so it's nice to see folks that, uh, everybody I used to work with.
So here I am, and, uh, I guess it's over to Doug, is Doug on, yep.
>> Okay, uh, so I, I have spent like seven years, uh, in Consulting, and now I, uh, formerly -- I,
I work for Accessibility and Usability, so I support the DHS accessibility help desk, so I'm
the person that will be handling all your emails, um, via the email address that was shared today.
>> Awesome, thank you, Doug. I, uh, yeah, so many of you know and love Doug already. Uh,
many of you might not realize it was Doug on the other end of an email exchange. Um, but,
but Doug has, uh, has been offering excellent customer service on the help desk for years.
And Al mentioned he was at DHS, he was, he's the former deputy director of the Office of Accessible
Systems and Technology, which is now Accessibility or-- part of Accessibility and Usability.
Thank you all to my, uh, to my co-panelists for,
for putting up with me and, and, uh, and, and being willing to offer your expertise.
Um, so, this, this panel, uh, you had a little bit of the background, um, but the reason I assembled
this panel is because, um, we, you know, we have, uh, you know, varying perspectives, obviously,
some expertise in the world of accessibility, um, some a little bit more involved in, in helping to,
um, assess needs for accommodations and, and, uh, and assistive technologies as part of those,
um, and, and of course, some of us have some, some very lived experiences that
contribute to the conversation, uh, about and tips and tricks, uh, things we might offer to
this audience to help you understand, um, you know, what we need to consider when it comes
to managing our online engagement, whether, um, whether it's, uh, a meeting like this
or it's using online collaboration tools, even if it's not directly in a meeting, uh, and we'll come
back to that to kind of set the stage for, uh, you know, for what exactly we're talking about.
I'm going to very cautiously share screen. Yesterday I shared screen and it crashed my
computer somehow, uh, so, well, if that happens, I'll, I'll ask one of you to
take over while I come, uh, drop and come back, but I did just want to share, uh, very briefly,
uh, share my screen, um, to show you that on Section508.gov,
we have a great article information resource on creating accessible meetings, everywhere from,
uh, meet planning and considerations during the planning process and and
asking about accommodations, planning logistics, logistics to make sure that the meeting runs,
um, as accessibly as possible, uh, creating presentation materials that are accessible,
tips for running meetings, and ways that you can engage more, uh, or, you know,
better, more inclusively, and, uh, and, and then preparing and presenting or delivering, uh, the,
you know, either recordings or materials after meetings.
So, while the focus is on meetings here, this is definitely also can inform our discussion here,
but I wanted to give you the ability to, um, I want to give you a little bit of a takeaway,
uh, stuff you can study on your own later, and you can get there by going to
section508.gov/create/accessible-meetings. So, that, that's the, that's the promo that I'll do,
um, on my end. Um, and indeed, indeed, it does look like I, I, uh, I now that I've, nope, okay,
now I got, I got myself back. Okay, didn't crash this time. I was worried about that for a second.
Um, so, so again, so, so that content, you know, about accessible meetings, our conversation is,
it is about, uh, meetings and helping to make meetings accessible as part of our
online engagement, but it's a little bit broader than that. And, and so, you know, to kind of help
us set, help us set the scope a little bit, which admittedly is pretty broad, um, uh, Al, I wanted
to go to you first and kind of, maybe go, go to you to help us set that stage or set the scope.
What are we talking about when we meet, when we talk about online engagement and collaboration?
>> So, yeah, I asked when I was asked to be on this, like, throughout something of, like,
the word collaboration can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, and virtual
environments can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Um, it could be anything from, um,
just sharing files or working on a file with more than, you know, two authors, five authors that,
concurrently, it could be the video conferencing with multiple people. It could be, um,
all the way up to doing things like gaming. I mean, you know, it's all that's all kind
of collaboration. So, uh, for me, anyway, for this talk, I've focused on sort of the things
people use day to day. Let's just, you know, put it up, Teams, our favorite thing, Teams or Zoom.
Um, so you've got working on files collaboratively together,
sharing screens, and, you know, those are the primary things. And then, and then, uh, real-time
interactive communications, those are the three areas that I sort of focused on for this.
Um, so as opposed to covering everything, because then we would need more time.
>> Right, right. We can't boil the ocean today, uh, but I like,
I like those kinds of groupings. And, and I think, you know, also to acknowledge that
those things we can use also in combination and independently,
um, from one another. And so, um, and there might be different considerations when we're using them
collaboratively or in combination, um, and or, uh, independently. So, you know, a document repository
or co-editing a document might look very different once we, now, join a meeting together to talk
through that together, uh, and, and so, you know, again, we're this is not going to be the end-all
and be-all of the conversation, uh, but hoping at least it gives some, uh, insights about how
to manage those collaborations more inclusively and to make them a little bit more accessible.
So yeah, thanks Al, for kind of helping us set the stage again, broad scope, but, uh, but,
but at least it may be hopefully gives us a little bit better idea of what we're talking about.
Kathy, I wanted to go to, go to you next to, kind of, to, uh, to, to give us a little bit
of what are some of the common pitfalls, again, when we're talking about meetings or about some
of the other collaboration tools, what are some of the common pitfalls we run into,
and how might we address some of those? And then, Al and Doug, get ready, because
then I want to come back to you for, again, you know, kind of some more of the lived experience,
um, so, so get ready for that. Uh, but yeah, Kathy, please, uh, start us off.
>> Yeah, uh, thanks. I, um, I think, you know, in our past few years of having to meet virtually and
learning how to do it right, we still have a few things that, you know, we've learned, and still
some other things that are popping up that people just, uh, are unfamiliar with. So, I'll just, uh,
kind of talk about some of the accessibility barriers that, that maybe can be addressed,
um, even while in the meeting.
I think a common problem that sometimes we encounter during presentations and displaying
slide decks, um, a lot of people tend to say, "As you can see," but maybe add to that the audio
description of what you're trying to point out that's visually available. Include some text, uh,
description about what it is you're even trying to point out. It could be a very busy picture,
and I could bet, you know, a text description could benefit everyone to focus on what it is that
you're trying to talk about, what it is you're trying to maybe highlight for the entire audience.
Um, sometimes I'm even guilty of this one, like there are a lot of controls to raise
your hand and give a thumbs up, but I'll give a thumbs up visually, and no one in,
no one who's, uh, in the meeting will be aware of it because they're not looking just at me. Um,
so I use the, use the technical, uh, equivalence, like nodding your head or giving your thumbs up if
you want to get in the queue to say something, raise your hand with the platform features.
Um, one of the things that Al mentioned is, is the document sharing. Make sure that when, uh,
you're sharing a document, provide it accessibly in advance, so people aren't seeing it and trying
to listen to it with possibly their screen reader while people are talking. That could
be really difficult to listen to and read at the same time with a screen reader.
Um, even in, you know, earlier, maybe not so much a problem now, is you've got to pay attention to
what's being shown in the captions, especially if they're just automated captions. For the longest
time, I didn't get Section 508 to even get Camp, the automatic captions, to display correctly.
Um, and then just basic things like, you know, if you're in a noisy environment and you don't have,
uh, noise cancellation on your mic, that can really interfere with people hearing you and
understanding what you're saying. And then on the visual side, if you're, if you're, you have a
background that's too bright or if you're in a room that's too dark, um, that interferes with
someone who's maybe trying to use, uh, lip reading or speech reading and, to help them understand.
So, there are a lot of things that might be common sense, um, but on top of that
are some accessibility considerations when you're on these virtual platforms.
>> Excellent, thank you, Kathy. I, I think those are some good, really common ones, and,
and as we see with, with a lot of, uh, many of these recommendations, some of it is, is just
getting used to, in general, interacting in, in virtual environments, and, and some of it, uh,
it helps more than just people with disabilities, but, but especially so when we understand, you
know, how, how it might affect, uh, you know, for instance, someone reading using a screen reader,
um, and, or someone with low hearing that, that, uh, for where the background noise is especially
disturbing. Um, so if I could, uh, at all, if I could, uh, go to you next and, and ask you maybe
for more specifics, you know, are there some, some particular accessibility challenges or issues
that, that you encounter or, or more broadly, uh, that you know, that you know of that others
are encountering, but you know, so both, you know, in general, experience, some of your lived
experience, and, and what are some suggestions to help, uh, you know, overcome some of those?
>> I'm probably guilty of already failing some of these, since I'm outside and there's a bird
in the background, so I'll just throw a couple of them out. I'm mostly just
gonna speak for me because I don't want to speak for others. So, one of the challenges,
and this sort of connection with the guy from Apple is talking about cognitive load,
well, I'm sure many of you and me, the more you get outside of the government, especially,
um, you use multiple platforms, and just a basic cognitive load of which key, which key turns the
camera on and off. Well, of course, they couldn't possibly just be the same key, like, you know,
make things easy, and, uh, so, and but on most of the platforms, there's a lot of controls,
there's a lot of options. I mean, to be honest, to me, that feels like there's,
I know they're, you know, they're sales-driven, they want a new feature to put it in there, but
from an operational perspective, there's a lot of stuff, and if, if you're blind, sometimes they're
accessible, but let's just, let's say it that they're not necessarily very usable. Sometimes
they're just too complicated to remember. So, that's one. I don't know if that's because I'm
blind or I'm having cognitive load. I don't know which one.
Um, another one would be if you're doing collaborative editing on a document,
two people kind of works, once you start getting past two people, though,
having the discussion and they being able to listen with a screen reader
to the edits and make sure that they're correct can be a real cognitive load for a blind person
or a low-vision person using a screen reader. And what I've found is often, you, it's best to just
have an editor, somebody that does the editing that's taken from discussion and sometimes even
reads it out and says, "Okay, here's what we changed." It can really speed things up.
And then lastly, during presentations, the thing, um, Kathy touched on about sending
the document ahead of time, the concept to not understand really clearly is that when people
do a presentation and they're sharing their screen with their PowerPoint or whatever,
it doesn't share an accessible PowerPoint, it shares a picture of the PowerPoint.
So, the person on the other end can't just read what is being shown with their screen reader,
really, they could do some crazy things and maybe, but it would be, they'd be doing more
of that than trying to pay attention. And so, having something ahead of time that's accessible
gives a person the opportunity to go through it quickly or maybe flip back and forth a little
bit while the other person's talking and listen to it or look at it on a Braille display. Um, it
kind of comes down to how much can you process it once, kind of back to that whole cognitive thing.
So, those are, those are kind of back to the same things, but those are just some of them.
>> Yeah, you know, Doug or Doug, Al, if I could ask you one more, that,
that, that you know you mentioned in, in, you know, some of our notes, uh, email exchange,
um, and that's with regard to the chats, uh, during a live meeting.
>> Say that last part one more time, yeah.
>> Sorry, the, the challenge for a screen reader user, uh, with the live chat in a meeting.
>> Oh yeah, so, uh, the screen reader Jaws actually allows you to put
chat messages in one ear and then, like, listen or discuss in the other ear. Well, that's fine to a
point, I have two ears, not everybody does, um, but chats can become just complete distractions
if you're trying to listen to two things at once. You end up listening to one or the other, usually,
and not all platforms let you separate the chat from the live discussion, in which case, it's,
it's just bad, it's just bad thing. So, you have to figure out a way to turn that off, just turn,
sometimes you actually have to be turned off your screen reader, hope for the best.
Um, so chats, in my opinion, is, chat should be used sparingly during meetings if possible or at
least they should, your platform should have a way so they can be filtered out,
um, but, you know, I realize that people like chats, so it's just a, it's a balancing act.
>> Yeah, and, and, uh, we'll hope to have time, we'll won't leave people in suspense too long,
we have, you know, some suggestions for, it, to, you know, to help, um, kind of moderate, uh,
some of that accessibility issue or, or usability or, um, kind of cognitive load that that presents,
but before doing that, Doug, I wanted to go to you with the same question, you know,
and again, in either in just observation or some of your, um, lived experience, uh,
you know, what are some other, uh, inclusivity or accessibility challenges you've encountered?
>> So, um, I offered my computer, mainly, um, by voice, um, speech-to-text software, and,
um, one of the challenges that I have had is that, um, sometimes if you have...
[...Stammering...] ...in a meeting set up,
um, sometimes if it has too many things or you're not in a quiet place,
sometimes your speech-to-text software, um, will screw up, so I, I end up, um, actually,
when I'm in meetings, I actually end up turning my speech-to-text software off because, um...
...although I have a disability, I, I use, I use the software more for,
um, productivity purposes then so...
...I...
...I have...
...my specific case is my disability is mild compared to most folks, and...
...my experience...
...is different than, say, a friend of mine who, who may have different limitations due to
a disability or whatever, so it really, it really comes down to not of one size fits all type of
approach in my mind, um, and, um, one of the other things that I run into in virtual meetings is...
...the fact that people talk over each other,
um, so, and sometimes the meeting organizer has to understand that...
...sometimes it takes a little bit longer for the individual to get their thoughts together, so...
...with that being said, everybody has to...
...everybody has to give a chance to everybody in the meeting.
>> Yeah, Doug, I think, um, you know, certainly,
we need to certainly be aware that, uh, that not everyone either has the inclination or the
ability, sometimes, to assert their opinion, uh, to insert it, um, and and or to maybe,
um, have the time to react in time to certain points, and and and so that, I think, it often
is up to other, you know, members of the, of the team, other, other meeting participants, and often
the facilitator, to help ensure that everyone has a chance for for input, and yeah, yeah, and,
you know, to your earlier point, I mean, the one size fits all, of course, it just can't work, and
that's part of, I think, uh, not only within the meeting, uh, adjusting to accommodate particular
needs, but but also in preparation, uh, for for meetings and from for collaboration sessions,
to make sure that we really do understand, you know, what what we, what we're all coming to the
meeting with and and what, you know, what our needs are, um, you know, depending on on our
particular situation and and uh, um, so I, yeah, I think, excellent, um, excellent comments there,
uh, in the interest of time, we had to kind of talked about maybe some some tips and tricks for
a host and facilitator, kind of separate from a presenter, but if if possible, Kristen and Kathy,
I'm going to ask you to tag team that, um, so, so, like to maybe, to maybe we'll help the, the DHS
team get get, uh, maybe get get uh, get a little bit more, uh, back on on on uh, on, on schedule,
um, but, but yeah, if we could, uh, you know, Kathy first and then Kristen maybe,
uh, what are some tips and tricks hearing some of the lived experience? Hearing, in general, some of
the issues, um, in inclusivity and accessibility, what are some tips and tricks for, it doesn't have
to be a meeting or or presenter, a facilitator per se, but, you know, a team member who's helping to
facilitate the collaboration, but probably, I guess, you know, focusing on on a virtual,
uh, collaboration, Kathy, if you could take that first and then over to Kristen as well to add on.
>> Yeah, uh, thanks Andrew, I think we saw an example of something when we first,
first started our meeting, uh, we need to know how to provide keyboard shortcuts
for people who need to use them, um, I don't think it's reasonable to expect,
uh, you know, the host to memorize all of them, but have them available, know how to find them,
um, in teams, at least in my version of teams, if you try to turn on your camera by the mouse,
then the keyboard shortcut is available with that button, so, so that's a great way to find things,
but not all platforms provide that same level of information, so be familiar with the
platform that you're using, um, are all of the features available in the platform accessible,
um, is the polling feature accessible, if it's not, then don't use it, how do you
enable captions, all of these accessibility features might be needed by your attendees,
and it'd be great if they don't know how and they ask you to be able to answer that,
and and in preparation of for the meeting, I would try to provide terminology for the CART
and sign language interpreters so that they can at least become familiar with what you're going
to be talking about so that they can provide the captions or the sign language correctly, and,
um, we mentioned this earlier, share any presentation materials in advance and do
some technology checks, especially for an event like this, DHS accessibility day, make sure
everyone's mic sounds good, make sure their video looks good, and and just, uh, plan to provide
accessibility features and information during the meeting, and I'll turn it over to Kristen.
>> Okay, sweet, um, and I'm going to talk a little bit about, kind of, present our best practices
that kind of weaves into what Kathy mentioned, but this also isn't just for presenters,
the participant as well, and some of this goes back to what Doug and Al both referenced, to
um, but just be mindful of who's in the audience and plan for any end-user considerations in
advance, and, and we just heard, uh, Al and Doug give their perspective, where, you know, Al didn't
particularly care for chat, but that might be a very valuable way for others to communicate, um,
so just know that, uh, using both options might not be best for everyone in the audience, but it
provides inclusivity, um, and then some things that the panel already mentioned, uh, but worth
kind of repeating again is providing those kind of equivalent descriptions, this also goes into
cognitive load, and, and Al touched on this, but tell people what they're looking at and why, for
folks who also have cognitive disabilities, don't make them decipher a chart or a graph, just tell
them the important information, and you don't have to read verbatim on the screen, please don't think
that we're saying just read from your slide deck, and that's all you need to do, but find natural
ways to weave in really salient points, um, and then just to reiterate that Al's point, that the
misconception is that when you're screen sharing, folks using assistive technology can actually get
into and access that document, they can't, so again, repeat, um, share materials in advance, I
also think that people have a fear of silence, but I think silence and pauses can be super helpful,
um, allow time for sign language interpreters to switch, that's a really great way to build
an applause, I am actively trying not to speak rapidly, I know that I'm super guilty of that,
um, but a, you know, give captioners time to synchronize and catch up with you,
um, and then this just goes into everything we've talked about, that remember the different people
in the audience are going to be accessing and participating in different ways, I know for
even some of us like I, we don't use Teams over in GSA, so I'm accessing it through a browser,
which looks different than if I were to download the application, some people might have to use
the phone because they don't have another way to access Teams, and so you know, really give people
a time to get adjusted to the technology, um, and again, back to those pauses, and as Al said,
sometimes navigating to the chat or listening to chat is distracting, someone might need to
take time to figure out how to enable their video or unmute themselves, so again, provide everyone
ample time just to feel comfortable to be able to interact, um, as they need, that was all I had.
>> Yeah, thank you, Kristen. Oh, go ahead, Kathy.
>> Andrew, I just wanted to re-emphasize something, and very important that Kristen
mentioned, not everybody in the meeting has the same version of the platform, uh, so diff,
you know, different people might have different features, some might not even be able to access
the chat, so you can't rely on chat to convey the message, um, it's important that if you're holding
a big event like this, if people can't access the chat, that they need to be able to have a
way to ask questions, and, and maybe allowing the attendees to come off mute to ask their question.
>> Yeah, yeah, thank you, Kathy. Excellent points, and, you know, if I could add, if I,
as, as a panel moderator, if I could take the liberty to add a little bit as well,
um, you know, in some meetings, we might have a formal court facilitator, a meeting host,
others are, are impromptu, and nevertheless, you know, well, I guess depending on which case, uh,
it sometimes takes a facilitator or or someone to step into that role when we have boisterous,
uh, discussion and people talking over one another, that especially, of course, when you
have an interpreter or and or captioner, that can be really difficult on the interpreter and and or
the captioner, and in general, even without those, of course, that can be difficult to,
uh, to, you know, differentiate speech and and sometimes get the whole message, uh,
so you know, please that for yourselves, um, and and if you, if you are a formal,
uh, facilitator or meeting host, uh, then then step into that role, use that to help moderate,
um, and you know, to Al's earlier comment about about chats,
um, and just like Kristen mentioned, uh, you know, being ensuring that you provide,
or I'm sorry, it might have been Kathy, but you know, of course, when you when you provide an
audible description of the visual content, uh, that could also include, you know, highlighting
particular chat messages that everyone needs to to hear, and that someone with a screen reader,
your user, might have missed, um, but but it's still important to the conversation,
um. I want to you, Doug, or Doug and Al, I know we're going to lose you in just a few minutes
here, I wanted to go back to you, uh, to ask you for, uh, and Al first, since we're gonna
lose out, uh, any parting, uh, recommendation, suggestions, tips that you would offer to other
from a meeting participant or a collaborator, co-collaborator, perspective, what suggestions,
recommendations would you make to co-collaborators, other meeting
participants, to help make the experience of collaboration more inclusive and more accessible?
>> Um. [pause] I don't know if it's connected or not, but I'll throw it in here anyway, sure
because I do have to go. Um, one of the things that I recommend to people that are organizing
meetings is, you know, if you think about it, there's a lot of people that present in the
world and it's pretty hard to educate all of them. Well, educate them before they start presenting.
If you're the coordinator of the meeting, give them some guidelines about, you know, explain
your pictures on your slides or if you've got a video and it might need some description,
you know, things like that, just give them some guidelines, and you know, ask them if they could
please follow them. And then the other thing I wanted to mention was, and Kristen touched on it,
we noticed that the Windows client for Zoom.gov is a better accessibility experience
for some things, and if you just do it on the web, so you have to consider that when you're,
you know, when you're doing these meetings, depending, you know, if it's internal, internal,
and external, etc. Uh, I think Kathy's right, not everybody's getting the same experience,
and, uh, sometimes it's best to sort of take that into account and maybe plan for the worst of all
worlds. And then the last thing I would throw out, if your agency is using an inaccessible platform,
call them on it and tell them to quit doing that because I won't name names,
but there's some that are just not good, and people are still using them, and it,
it makes life pretty miserable for people with disabilities, so, uh,
get them to quit using them or get them to fix them, one or the other. I think that's all I have.
>> Uh, great, thanks Al and, and understanding you might have to drop, uh, really again appreciate
you joining us and offering your expertise. Uh, Doug, yeah, same question, uh, you know, what
suggestions would you make to your co-workers, to co-collaborators, other meeting participants,
uh, to help make the experience more inclusive and accessible?
>> Oh, apologies, Doug, you're on mute still.
>>
Okay, so the one thing that I would say is just, no, no, [Stammering] who is attending the meeting,
and if you have to, if you have to make accommodations in terms of timing based on
a person's disability or whether it takes them longer to get their thoughts together, just...
...just be aware of that. If you're an event host or a working collaborator,
um, using, like, the Microsoft Teams collaboration tools, sometimes it's easier for folks to open
documents and collaborate if you open it within the desktop app versus the Teams um
window because it allows for more inclusiveness if it's not trying to open it in the web version,
etc. Yeah, yeah, so, so I would just, I would just say
know your participants, and, um, just make sure that if, if you know somebody with
challenges coming, asking, ask them first, how can we best assist you or what do you need
to be the most productive you can be in this discussion or this collaborative environment.
>> Yeah, and, and you know, Doug, I think for, for our discussion, I think that's, that's a
great way, uh, it's a great parting thought, um, again, you know, back to your comment that it's,
we can't take a one-size-fits-all approach, uh, of course, everyone,
um, has their own individual lived experience, every disability is different,
even, even if we're talking about the same type of disability, everyone experiences, uh, differently,
um, and, and even outside of that, of course, we all have, have preferences and and, and different
needs, so I, I love, uh, that as a parting message for everyone to, to, you know, to, to
know your audience and to understand their needs and to plan in advance to help address those,
um, so I think, uh, again, I think we've, we started our, our part late, of course, uh,
and, and, uh, I think I probably lost track of time a little bit, but I think we're,
we're probably roughly on time for our overall time slot, um, but Vince, I'll, I'll give it
back to you. I think, I think we're happy to answer questions if we have time for that,
but, uh, but I think also, if, uh, if we need to move along, uh, we can just pass it right back.
>> Yeah, yeah, we, I think from a timing standpoint, you're right on time right now.
Um, are there any questions? I see that there are some comments,
um, in the chat, but I did not see any specific questions.
I don't think I saw any specific questions for, for any of the panelists, but, um, uh, just some
ongoing conversation. So, well, one thing I could say for myself, you know, Devon took notes about
best experience for the end users, thinking about the audience who's going to be participating in
your particular program that you're putting on and make sure it's more inclusive. Pretty sure
it would definitely will take some notes even for ourselves. And Miss Kristen Smith O'Connor,
I am sorry about the O'Connor in the end there. I should have known, veterans read all of my notes.
>> Well, again, thanks, thanks to our panelists,
um, and, uh, and, and thanks to, to, uh, the audience for, for your attention. Hopefully,
we gave you something useful, uh, from our discussion to take away, and, again,
Section508.gov, I'll make the shameless plug for, uh, content there, uh, as a whole the
site's a great resource and, and again, the link that cat or that Kristen posted for us earlier,
uh, on creating accessible meetings, uh, some good content there. Thanks, everyone.
>> Thank you, everybody.
>> That was a great presentation, great information shared, thank you.
All right, all right, guys, we are going to move into our next panel discussion,
is going to be called...